Islam, Christianity and the Government
Posted by Will Haggard on March 5th, 2007
Having all but placed the Christian adoption agency matter to bed, after it was pointed out that they receive government funding and thus are required to follow the equal opportunities criteria set out by government, I am faced with a quandary.
Mosques in this country receive substantial government grants as part of a broader scheme to promote and protect the interests of religious and ethnic minorities within our society. Grand me thinks. The information on funding can be found here.
Some mosques allow women in behind a partition screen. Many however prohibit the access of the Mosque to women. Having studied the Koran this term it is apparent that Muhammad’s view on this was that “The best mosques for women are the inner parts of their houses.”
Using the current liberalist stance, that if a private institution accepts government funding it should have to prescribe to the government’s political and social agenda of equal opportunities, then surely under this precedent, Mosques which receive government funding should have to accept women or face charges of discrimination. After all, if the Christian doctrine on mixed marriage families can be overruled by the state then it seems only right to treat Muhammad’s doctrine, on the place of women in society, in the same light.
Yet I fear, uniformity in the application of equal opportunities will not take place. Perhaps the double standards, which are apparent in the application of this ideological bulldozer reveal something deeper. That it is ultimately being used to advance the social and political wishes of a certain political group, dare I say a minority, against a pre-existing religious and cultural infrastructure within Britain.
Filed under: culture, gender, religion, ukpolitics on March 5th, 2007
I think it is interesting how long this post has been up without a response - indicative perhaps of the fact that there is a clear double standard here, and a really rather awkward one.
I don’t think it points to an attempt to supplant one religious value system for another (I doubt that was what you were implying - was it?). Neither, however, can it really point to the sort of liberal ideological agenda you have spoken about before since the exclusion of women hardly squares with ‘equal opportunities’ rhetoric, like you say.
What I think it really demonstrates is the acceptability of ‘Anglican bashing’ in today’s society. An odd idea perhaps but read the beginning of this article Supplant Christianity for Islam - there would be an outcry! But no, it’s only Christianity, and of the English variety led by that charming man Rowan Williams. Caricatures, insults, we can hardly outdo the Python boys fire away! Figures in government I fear take the same stance - it’s ONLY the Church of England.
I’m not trying to make martyrs of Anglicans however, nor argue that they are under any kind of comprehensive and reprehensible assault - frankly, I don’t think they are.
But this does all go against the entire public and political rhetoric of it being unacceptable to insult or criticise religious beliefs.
This is all relevant to the gay adoption debate - what about legal precedent? If Christian adoption agencies are forced to consider homosexual parents under anti-discrimination it sets a precedent, and one which under legal proceedings could well be applied to institutions of other faiths. It seems incredible that no-one has made the connection. It is a result I think of principles being ever so slightly overcome by pragmatism - that nobody minds an attack on the English Church.
Other faiths might mind however; that’s why this could all get very awkward.
Attacks on the Anglican church are accepted because it is seen as a majority institution, OUR church should behave according to OUR beliefs. The secularisation of British Christian society has made backward religious practice a faux pas in mainstream christian institutions. Islam, as with judaism, Sikhism, etc. is seen as a minority and alien religion. Because we do not fully understand their religion and adherence to cultural practices not our own, we feel unable to criticise, it’s not our patch. Mosques and synogogues preaching a much more western Liberal line get overshadowed by those like Finsbury Park by a media eager to create stories, to whip up fear and hatred. Political correctness has not solved the problems of racism, instead it has driven any debate on issues affecting or arising from the ethnic population into the hands of those like the BNP. The no-platform policy has not worked. It is about time that we reclaimed these necessary discussions from racists and extremists. It is about time that people of all political creeds stopped using the word racist to end difficult discussions and instead encouraged frank and open debate. Then ethnic populations could be seen for what they are, British citizens, no different to you or I and with beliefs perhaps not our own but on the whole easily intergrateable into British society. Acceptance of minorities should not and does not mean compromising our fundemental beliefs in equality and liberty. Islam and western society are compatible if we reclaim multiculturalism from extremism and racism
First off - judging by the law which was recently passed against the ‘incitement of religious hatred,’ a rather vague and woolly definition that is open to the interpretation of the dominant ethnic majority you feel is under threat, these minorities may be in need of some protection. Your argument towards the end bears an uncanny similarity to the one Jean-Marie Le Penn and the National Front use to justify their policies towards the largely Algerian population who are housed in large concrete tower blocks on the outskirts of cities and, in times of unrest, are forcibly prevented from leaving by the armed forces: the idea that the customs of immigrant peoples present a threat to tradition and must be suppressed, by means of coercion if necessary. The banning of religious headgear can also be seen as an example.
This is not multiculturalism, which is defined as the (peaceful) coexistence of different ethnic groups, but integration. Or, as it was called under Tsar Nicholas II’s ill-fated regime, ‘Russification.’ Or perhaps I’m just getting carried away in my own rhetoric.
A. To Clarify. I am not insinuating that Islam is trying to surprlant Christianity in my final paragraph. Rather that the White Middle Class Intellectual Labour activists are trying to undermine the pre-existing religous and cultural infrastructure of this country by forcing the Church into compromising positions whilst not applying their beliefs uniformly across society. My point is that cultural erosion isn’t happening due to the militancy of other minority cultures, far from it. It is a process being executed from within British society. A form of national kamikaze if one pushes the concept to the limit.
B. I fail to see how the above post resembles anything to do with French Fascism and the National Front. Jessica have you read the post above yours by Mark Walmlsey? You are falling into exactly the trap he has highlighted. Trying to quash political debate on serious issues by bringing out the fascist card. It’s counter productive and it’s not hugely clever. (sorry to sound harsh)
I feel that Will is right in that the current liberal, secular and equality-obsessed hegemony in politics and the media threatens a balanced analysis, in public, of controversial issues.
It is similar to what James Bartholomew was saying yesterday. Just as the middle classes feel they are not entitled to criticise the welfare state or the poor, so do the politicised middle classes feel unable to offend ethnic and religous minorities. This fear of supporting nationalism or the rights of being in the majority is similar to what happened in Germany when public debate was taken over by left intellectuals who abhorred all foreign intervention or nationalism.
Thanks for pointing this out Will. I don’t buy the argument that because Christianity is seen as ‘our’ religion, then we apply harsher standards to it. Firstly, Catholicism (as you cited the gay adoption example) hasn’t been ‘our’ religion for quite some time, but also I think because gay and lesbian rights are a much more recent development than women’s rights, there is more ‘fight’ left in it. Women’s rights, on the other hand, are (wrongly) seen as done and dusted. However, I also think there is an element of fear or political correctness, call it what you will, of upsetting this group in society - Muslim men. Or should this be an issue for Muslim women to bring up themselves?
I think that the reason that Catholic Adoption Agnecies are not allowed to discriminate in the povision of goods and services etc is because they count as a public authority in this respect (see s.6 Human Rights Act), i.e. they are providing an adoption service, which is a public function and not a religious service.
Art 9 of the European Convention on Human Rights allows freedom of thought, conscience and religion and the right to manifest those beliefs either alone or in community with others etc, but I don’t think there is a double standard. If the Muslim Community had similar adoption agencies, they would also not be allowed to discriminate in the way the Catholic adoption agencies were doing. It looks like the funding was given to the MCB (not directly to Mosques) and for specific projects. The Catholic Church has not been required to change it’s beliefs, but to accept that in the public sphere, there may be restrictions on the manifestation of belief as allowed by Art 9(2). Im not very familiar with equality law, but presume that legally at least, the same law that applies to one religion would apply to all.
Absent petro revenues, no radical islamic state can progress economically beyond a slave trading, tent living, wife beating, drug smuggling, gun running, currency forging, paedophile worshiping, throat slitting, hell hole.
The evidence is all around you globally.
Where ever Islam meets other cultures/religions, there is violence, murder, gang-rape, intimidation, terrorism throat slitting, be-headings to celebrate ramadan etc, etc. It is the nature of Islam. Did you know that in liecester at the end of ramadan, the sewage system failed due to congealed blood from the backyard slaughter of animals for halal food? You do now. Sharia law rules in endless areas of the UK.
In the ME, the children are brainwashed from birth in jihad (struggle) by state sponsored school books, TV, songs, etc, 24/7.
That will happen here if Islamic schools are permitted, or Mosques not supervised.
Open your godammed eyes, get of your fat lazy ass, and smell reality.
Tony Blair, the whore of multiculturalism, and his left wing jerk-offs have lead this country on the road to an Islamic hell-hole
Read the Koran. Read the Hadiths. Visit real-life blogs. Try a bit of self education in the real world.
For fucks sake, wake up befor it’s too late
http://zeenews.com/articles.asp?aid=358644&archisec=WOR&archisubsec
The Taliban, who as a matter of ideology reject the schooling necessary to support a modern industrial economy or military, have gone out and kidnapped up some skills they could not create on their own in a thousand madrassas:
Two scientists cannot possibly build a bomb in a cave in Waziristan. Perhaps, though, they could figure out how to assemble one from pieces that have already been acquired, or arm one that al Qaeda may have purchased. Regardless, it is scary to learn that Pakistan operates an atomic research facility in a part of the country that it does not actually control. It invites the obvious question, what else has al Qaeda been able to “requisition” from PAEC’s North West Frontier Province facility?
They clearly have the objective of the elimination of “The West”.
Saudi and Iranian petro funds are currently the main source.
The three-way conspiracy, put together in Tehran Tuesday, March 6, by Iranian leaders, visiting Venezuelan foreign minister Nicolas Maduro Moros and Hamas hard-line leader Khaled Meshaal, who arrived in Iran for the second time in a month.
Moros took the opportunity of calling George W. Bush a “criminal†at a joint news conference with Iranian FM Manouchehr Mottaki, so setting the tone for anti-US demonstrations awaiting him in Brazil, Uruguay, Colombia, Mexico and Guatemala.
Meshaal said he was in Tehran to hear Iranian president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad’s report on his talks with Saudi King Abdullah in Riyadh last Saturday but, according to Iranian sources, he came for a briefing on Hamas’ role in the broad Iranian plot to overshadow the US president’s Latin American tour.
He learned from Moros that the Chavez government would advance forthwith to his movement and the Palestinian Hamas government the sum of $50m and finance future arms deals. Iran offered to arrange the money transfer through Persian Gulf banks.
During the Bush tour, the Venezuelan government and Hamas plan to ceremonially open a Hamas Office in Caracas, licensed to handle the affairs of the substantial and affluent South American Palestinian colonies. The largest are in Chile and Nicaragua.
Meshaal and his entire Damascus-based political bureau will be invited for a formal visit to Caracas. Hugo Chavez, whose nickname is a “Fidel Castro with $50m dollars,“ will extend the Palestinian terrorist leader a welcome befitting a head of state.
These steps by the head of the world’s third largest oil-producing nation are more than a slap in the face for the US president; they have far-reaching strategic significance.
1. Chavez is extending his feud with the United States beyond the American continent to the Middle East.
2. Caracas is placing its vast cash resources at the disposal of a Tehran-sponsored Palestinian terrorist militia, thereby lining up with the Islamic Republic against the United States and Israel on a new world front.
3. The upsurge of funds will make available to the jihadi Hamas sophisticated and heavy weaponry which they could not afford before.
4. Venezuela is helping Iran break the economic and financial embargo the United States, Europe and Israel have clamped down on the Hamas government. Its ministers will no longer need to bring suitcases full of banknotes through the Rafah crossing into Gaza. The transfers will be wired from Venezuelan banks to institutions in the Gulf.
5. Hamas’ hand in power-sharing negotiations with Fatah has been strengthened. The blacklisted Hamas will no longer need the services of the internationally- recognized Palestinian Authority chairman Mahmoud Abbas and his connections with Washington to finance Palestinian government operations. The cash will flow without the Hamas government being subjected to the conditions laid down by the Middle East Quartet to recognize Israel, renounce violence and honor previous accords with the Jewish state.
6. The rejectionist Meshaal find himself strengthened in his Hamas movement after being demoted by Saudi King Abdullah, thus shiite Iran dilutes Sunni Saudi influence in the Syrian/Israeli/Lebanon/Iranian/Iraq arena
For f***s sake, wake up befor it’s too late
http://www.pmw.org.il/ASK%20FOR%20DEATH.htm
The Palestinian education system
Click on “To view the full movie click here:”
If any of you “File Share”, download the film “obsession” and see the real Islam.
For fucks sake, wake up befor it’s too late
Mad copy and paste skills.
Islam = Nazis …sounds like a wonderful spin off of George Bush’s Muslim Fascist rhetoric designed to galvanise support in the midwest for “War on terror.” Like Bush’s linking of Sadam Hussein to al’Qaeda, the second post by Islam=Nazis seems to insinuate that all of Americas enemies ie. Venezuela and Latin American left wing governments with Iran and Isalmic governments, are all in it together to destroy America AND ISRAEL?!…(note the inclusion of the latter in point 2.)
WHAT ARE YOU THINKING OF? Yes Islamic fundamentalism is a real issue within our Muslim communities in Britain, which by the by has a city called Leicester not Liecester, but you are only going to help win the argument for your so called “left wing jerk-offs” if you write like that, + legitimise pre-emptive American foreign policy which has led to such chaos in the Middle East and fuelled extremism. Bravo.
p.s Stop using the word F++k on this wall.
Billyboy and Mat.
As I thought, your limited parochial perception, infected by Eurabian princples, make you part of the enemy of freedom and democracy, rather than part of the solution.
Your linking of my comments to Dubbya actions confirms this.
Don’t impute wrong meanings, then assume guilt, you clown.
BTW there is overwheming evidence of S H and A Q collusion (B L) from the early 90s. You didn’t know? You do now. Surely you remember SH payment of $25000 to suicide bombers families in the ME, or are the prions getting at you?
WHAT ARE YOU THINKING OF?
I’m thinking clearly of global implications, of the actions, local, national, and international, which you seem entirely to ignore. I’m thinking of the type of country that parochial morons like you will leave to your children and grand children, I’m thinking of fertility rates, refusals to integrate, global ambitions at the point of a weapon, of Napoleonic law by stealth, of 800-odd no-go-muzzy areas in France replicated throughout the west in a few years because pedantic idiots like you chose to discuss spelling, rather than the real issues. (BTW you mis-spelt Islamic, richard head, tee hee) You think AQ will ignore the UK? Did 7/7 not happen. Didn’t you see the warnings from MI5, - how many plots, how many actors?? WHAT ARE YOU THINKING? You are absolutely stupid.
In your f***ing stupid pride, you are part of the problem. You think that delivery style pre-empts facts in a supposedly logical world? Well obviously you do if you swallow the PC idiots, and the blind stupidity of the ME reporting in the western press.
Heed the warnings all around you, f***-wit, and remember in a few years time how it used to be in this country. In order for evil to triumph……………………………..
…….are all in it together to destroy America AND ISRAEL?!…(note the inclusion of the latter in point 2.)
You got that bit wrong, billyboy, just substitute “the western civilisationsâ€. Also I detect a current of anti-joo. You’re a racist too, my, my.
I’ll not waste my time again on this wall, it ain’t got no resident brains.
The warnings are all around, let’s see the commons vote his week on Trident, to see how many have shiite between their ears, with at least 8 ME muzzy countries seeking nuclear weapons in response to Iranian hedgemony. (don’t you think it’s strange that Israel has had nuclear weapons for decades, and no ME muzzy has sought them, until Iran started ringing bells?? - - rather makes non-sense of your twisted assumptions, ey, billyboy!! FYI, a second strike capability (sub-carried trident) is required to deter a first stike.
Right, I’ll f*** off and try to find a more intellectual repository of brains, you lot suck!
P.S. I’ll use the F*** word where ever I f***ing-well want.
You cannot self appoint yourself as morals inspector, you perverse t***.
I think it is interesting that the current, second generation, children of immigrants from the sub-continent are in many ways less integrated and more prone to extremism than their parents.
That would be nice. I mean you leaving this wall and never coming back. Abusing the residents and trying to spread some sort of messianic message about the impending collapse of Western civilization isn’t particularly helpful.
“fertility rates, refusals to integrate, global ambitions at the point of a weapon, of Napoleonic law by stealth”
These aren’t the real issues. And what does Islam have to do with Napoleonic law? There is no danger whatsoever of Europe or America being overrun by Muslims, if that is what you are insinuating, and the reality of international politics is ‘global ambitions at the point of a weapon’. You need weapons to have global ambitions. And you need nuclear weapons to really count. What is your point?
‘BTW there is overwheming evidence of S H and A Q collusion (B L) from the early 90s.’
Congratulations Sherlock. There is overwhelming evidence of S H and US co-operation from the early 80s. But it doesn’t mean anything, because Saddam had nothing whatsoever to do with 11/9, and taking the ‘war on terror’ to Iraq was a lie, whatever you think about the war itself. What you point out is totally irrelevant.
‘Sharia law rules in endless areas of the UK.’
This seems to be something you have plucked out of thin air, or possibly the BNP website.
‘You think that delivery style pre-empts facts in a supposedly logical world? Well obviously you do if you swallow the PC idiots, and the blind stupidity of the ME reporting in the western press.’
Well yes, some facts would be nice if we are supposed to swallow your crackpot conspiracy theory.
You seem to have randomly linked two concepts you dislike, Islam and Nazism, for no discernable reason. The ideas of each are utterly opposed to the other. You have then provided us with the astonishing information that Hugo Chavez is anti-American. Given US policy towards him, is that surprising? Is it surprising that he wants to forge links with other anti-American groups?
‘AND ISRAEL?!’ ‘a current of anti-joo’ I suppose someone has to make the obvious point that there is nothing anti-Jewish about stating that you included Israel in the targets of the global anti-American conspiracy. Which you did.
This opens wider issues as well.
If you are to escape being
‘part of the enemy of freedom and democracy’
surely you have to recognize the free democratic choice of the Palestinian people, i.e. Hamas.
Though presumably you are in favour of freedom and democracy only as far as it supports US foreign policy. Which is different to ‘Western civilization’, despite the best efforts of your kind.
Dear Islam equals Nazi.
You are a fruitcake. You need help. Please don’t visit this site again - and for heavens sake read some bloody books before you expel any more hot air in anyone’s general direction.
Ever thought of learning the trombone, or the tuba perhaps? Might suit you better than politics, channel all that hot air into something productive…
Yours sincerely,
The real world